concurring and dissenting:
I concur with the majority’s opinion to the extent that it upholds the hearing judge’s decision that Paul and Edward are dependent children, I believe, however, that we should remand for further hearing.
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In reflecting upon this case — which, like so many child custody cases, is both heartbreaking and difficult — I have been considerably helped by two notable reports regarding child placement practices.
The first study is by the Children’s Defense Fund.1 After examining child placement in seven states, the Defense Fund summarizes its findings under the heading, “Families Don’t Count”, and goes on to say:
At every point in the placement process children and their natural families are isolated from one another by the action and inaction of those with official responsibility. Pro-family rhetoric notwithstanding, a pervasive, implicit anti-family bias often shapes decisions about children at risk of removal or in out-of-home care.2
Pennsylvania is not one of the states included in the Defense Fund report.3 However, child placement in Pennsylvania has been studied by the Pennsylvania State Task Force on Foster Care Services, and in its report, released in *616June 1978,4 the Task Force makes findings substantially the same as those of the Defense Fund.
Stated generally, the conclusion reached by both the Defense Fund and the Task Force is that before a child is taken from the family, every effort should be made to find and to use services that will enable the child to remain within the family.
The Defense Fund report states:
Theoretically, it is not difficult to imagine a range of services to prevent removal and enable families under stress to continue to function as family units. A poor family about to be evicted might need temporary shelter, money to prevent eviction, or a lawyer to challenge the eviction. A mother with a history of psychiatric illness, overwhelmed by the demands of a new baby, might need day care for her four-year-old or a homemaker to give her some afternoons of relief and prevent her rehospitalization. Day care, day treatment programs, adequate housing, legal services, homemakers, and family shelters are all part of what might be considered supportive family services. So too are parent education programs and respite facilities so parents of severely handicapped children may have some time off. Yet, in most communities few, if any, of these alternatives exist.
Id. at 16 (footnote omitted).
And in those communities where such alternatives do exist, they often are not used:
[T]he fact is, it is often easier to place a child than to offer services to him and the family while the child remains at home, regardless of the consequences.
Id. at 18.
Nor is official laziness the only explanation of why available alternative services are often not used:
Children are also separated from their own families because someone in authority dislikes the lifestyle or child-*617rearing practices of a particular family. Influenced by moral beliefs, political ideologies, or child-saving fantasies, those with decision-making responsibility sometimes fail to consider the psychological consequences to a child of removal from his family.
Id. at 18 (footnote omitted).
Where, however, there is resort to alternative services,
[t]he evidence suggests that maintaining children in their own families pays off not only for children, but fiscally as well. Yet it happens too rarely. The roots of the neglect of services to children in their own homes are complex, anchored in biases against the poor and the nearly poor, conveyed in historical patterns of service delivery, and reinforced by current fiscal patterns. The result is that at the point out-of-home placement becomes a serious possibility, it is very likely to become a reality. This is not necessarily what either the parents, the children or the service providers want. It is certainly not what is conveyed in the theory and rhetoric of children’s service systems which regard placement of a child out of his own home as “a last resort.”
Id. at 17-18 (footnotes omitted).
To ensure that in fact a child is not taken from the family except as a last resort, the Task Force has formulated a number of specific recommendations. The first three of these are as follows:
1. The needs of the child should be given primary consideration in any action or decision affecting the child’s right to a stable family relationship. Law, regulation and agency procedure should seek to insure that an acceptable environment exists which will provide an opportunity for adequate growth and development for each child. This can most appropriately occur within the child’s natural family. Intervention which disrupts the established relationship of child to natural family should occur only where extraordinary circumstances exist.
*6182. The child in any contested placement should have full party status and the right to be represented by counsel. Only in this way can the privacy [sic] of the child’s best interest be insured in contested court proceedings. Assuming the child has reached the age of understanding the child’s right to party status should also include the right to participate in the daily decisions affecting his life such as the selection of a foster home, the movement from one foster home to another, the development and involvement in a placement plan, arrangements for family visitation, and involvement in post planning when foster family care is discontinued.
3. Parental conduct should justify state intervention only when it has clearly negative child’s development. Standards for court intervention regarding agency custody and termination of parental rights actions should focus on the emotional and physical needs of the child rather than on parental fault alone. This focus should enhance family autonomy by reducing the number of families brought before the court.
Task Force Report, supra at 7-9.
The findings and recommendations of the Defense Fund and Task Force are consistent with our cases. We have repeatedly stated that the needs of the child should be given greatest consideration. In re Adoption of R. I., 468 Pa. 287, 361 A.2d 294 (1976); Appeal of Diane B., 456 Pa. 429, 321 A.2d 618 (1974); In re Clouse, 244 Pa.Super. 396, 368 A.2d 780 (1976) (plurality opinion). At the same time we have emphasized that in deciding how best to serve the needs of the child, the hearing judge should make every reasonable effort to preserve the family, only taking the child from the family on proof of “clear necessity”, which proof, moreover, must itself be “clear and convincing”. In re LaRue, 244 Pa.Super. 218, 366 A.2d 1271 (1976); 11 P.S. § 50-101(b) (Supp.1978-79). See also In re Adoption of R. L, supra; In re DeSavage, 241 Pa.Super. 174, 360 A.2d 237 (1976); Stapleton v. Dauphin County Child Care Service, 228 Pa.Super. *619371, 324 A.2d 562 (1974). “It is a serious matter for the long arm of the state to reach into a home and snatch a child from its mother.” Rinker Appeal, 180 Pa.Super. 143, 148, 117 A.2d 780, 783 (1955). Because it is so serious a matter, we have required the hearing judge to inform himself fully; he may not rely on the parties’ presentations but has an affirmative duty to seek out evidence from objective, disinterested witnesses; also, he must file a comprehensive and detailed explanation of his order. In re LaRue, supra; Gunter v. Gunter, 240 Pa.Super. 382, 361 A.2d 307 (1976); Commonwealth ex rel. Grillo v. Shuster, 226 Pa.Super. 229, 312 A.2d 58 (1973). And finally, we have recognized the child’s own interest and consequent right to be represented by counsel. In re LaRue, supra; Stapleton v. Dauphin County Child Care Service, supra.
However, in one respect the Defense Fund and Task Force go beyond our cases. As the Task Force’s recommendations show, they state explicitly that even if a hearing judge concludes that a child is without proper parental care, still, the judge should not take the child from the family without first, and further, determining that there are no alternative services that will enable the child to remain within the family. Our cases plainly imply that this is the hearing judge’s duty, but they do not say so explicitly. See, e. g., In re Whittle, 263 Pa.Super. 312, 397 A.2d 1225 (1979).
In my opinion, we should now say so explicitly. In doing so, we should be following the lead not only of our own cases but of the legislature, which, in providing for the dispositions that a hearing judge may make of a dependent child, has listed as the first — and therefore, we may assume, the preferred — disposition, that “[the court may] [p]ermit the child to remain with his parents . . . , subject to conditions and limitations as the court prescribes, including supervision as directed by the court for the protection of the child.” Juvenile Act, Act of Dec. 6, 1972, P.L. 1464, No. 333, as amended, 11 P.S. § 50-321(a)(l) (Supp.1978-79). In addition, such an explicit statement of the hearing judge’s duty should help improve alternative services, and lead to their *620creation where they do not now exist. Cf. Janet D. v. Carros, 240 Pa.Super. 291, 362 A.2d 1060 (1976).
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If one applies the foregoing principles to the present case, one will conclude, I believe, that the record should be remanded for further proceedings. The order of remand would not disturb the hearing judge’s finding that Paul and Edward were without proper parental care. However, it would instruct the judge to inquire further as to whether it might not be better to leave Paul and Edward with their parents, subject to such conditions as the judge found appropriate with respect to the provision of services designed to strengthen the family. I submit that an examination of the record will support the desirability of such a remand.
The first witness was Diana Avila. Ms. Avila described the Kunkle apartment as having “a horrible odor.” N.T. 4. She also described the apartment as being in a mess, when she visited it on April 25th. N.T. 6-7. However, she acknowledged that on April 20th the apartment “was fairly neat”, N.T. 4; on April 29th, “fairly neat looking”, N.T. 9; and on May 11th, “fairly neat at that point but the odor was still there and the cats were still there”, N.T. 10. On her last visit (the date of which the record does not disclose), “it wasn’t quite as clean as it had been the two previous visits.” N.T. 11.
Ms. Avila also referred to the children’s health. In particular, she said that Paul’s “feet seemed to be turning in more than they had in the past.” N.T. 13-14. At no point, however, did she suggest that parental neglect had affected the children’s health. To the contrary, she said “[Ojther than that [Paul’s feet], both children appeared to be in good health.” N.T. 12-13. On cross-examination the following occurred:
Q. Have the Kunkles cooperated so far with you in getting care for the children for these two children, getting medical attention?
*621A. Well, yes, I would say that they’ve shown some cooperation, yeah. Mrs. Kunkle came into the agency one day and we sat down and called until we could find a dentist that would be willing to accept medical assistance. I had encouraged her to do that and they don’t have a phone so we worked it out together.
Q. You did work it out. With respect to Paul and Edward, in comparison to Geraldine and Franklin, we were here before on Geraldine and Franklin; how do you view the progress, the school progress, health progress, any other progress that you’ve been monitering as far as Paul and Edward are concerned?
A. How do I view that? I think that Paul and Edward are doing very well in school. I’ve talked with both their teachers and health-wise, I think that the club foot condition is something that we’re still concerned about and the need for the work on Paúl, but health-wise I think the boys are basically healthy.
N.T. 14-15.
The next witness was Raymond Flood, attendance officer of the Allentown School District. He said that for the school term 1975-76, Paul had been absent 7 of 174 days, and Edward, 15, and that for the term 1976-77, Paul had been absent 14 of 160 days, and Edward, 23. N.T. 16. This testimony proved nothing, except that the children were absent a good deal less often than many children are.
The next witness was Rosie Ann Good, Paul’s home-room teacher. She said that sometimes when Paul came to school he was dirty, but other times he was “nice and neat but lately his condition is soiled.” N.T. 18. She was then asked, “What kind of a student is Paul?”, and she replied:
He’s a good student. He is on his ability for his age. He is doing a good job and he is a very likeable boy. He has a good attitude about himself. He seems to have a lot on the ball and he understands things around him that are happening and he can talk about them logically, and in his mind he seems very rational about it. Now, I don’t know if it’s his head or his heart talking but he does seem to *622really be able to relate to it and understand what’s going on.
N.T. 18.
The hearing judge then asked, “Do you have parent-teacher conferences?”, and she replied:
Yes, and she [Mrs. Kunkle] did come on both occasions and we sat down together and discussed Paul’s academic progress and things like this and we also discussed Jimmy [since placed in foster care] and the family, the eldest of the Kunkles and we did relate things about it — nothing that would be, you know, anything more than hearsay. There was trouble there and we had talked about Paul being careful with Jimmy because Jimmy was, I thought, leading Paul into things he shouldn’t have been involved with at his age. She was concerned. She came in on both occasions and she seemed really concerned about her child’s welfare.
N.T. 19.
The next witness was Mary Ann Hall, Edward’s homeroom teacher. Apart from identifying herself, Ms. Hall’s entire direct examination was as follows:
Q. Can you describe what Edward’s condition has been since he has attended school, physically, this year?
A. Physically he is not a very well kept young man, coming to school with very, very dirty hands, and body-wise, he is not too clean, but I have not detected any odor from him throughout the course of the year, although his clothes are not very well kept. I have not detected any body odor.
Q. But you have detected dirty clothes and dirty hands. Is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know whether Edward had a problem with head lice during the course of the year?
A. Yes. Edward was sent home after he had been checked by the nurse and the whole room had been checked.
*623Q. How long did that problem go on?
A. I think it was immediately taken care of and within a day or two he came back to school.
Q. How is Edward doing in school?
A. Edward does excellent work at school and he tries very hard. In fact, he is in my top reading group in third grade.
N.T. 21-22.
On cross-examination she said that except for the one lice incident, Edward had not been sent home. N.T. 23. She then responded to the hearing judge’s questions, as follows:
THE COURT: Mrs. Hall, with respect to Edward in the class, I gather he is — you have described him as an excellent student.
A. He is a very, very good student. I mean he has his days like we all have that he isn’t working up to par, but he gets along well with the boys and girls. When he came to third grade, third grade was a new experience at a new school for him. He had no friends and it was very difficult for him to get adjusted, and I started setting up little teams of people to have him get adjusted to our school and get adjusted to the boys and girls and he accepted that beautifully and at times he doesn’t want to be with other children, but that happens to everyone.
THE COURT: Do you have parent-teacher conferences? A. I have parent-teacher conferences and she came both times and we discussed his progress. We discussed the fact that at times he has problems of not wanting to work and these are just normal things that children do do in third grade, but his progress has really been just excellent this year and he gets along well with the rest of the class, and the rest of the class always want Eddie for a partner.
N.T. 23.
There were two other witnesses, but they added nothing of substance, and in fact, rather confused the issues with irrelevancies. Susan Hackman, a caseworker for Lehigh County Children’s Bureau, mostly spoke of the Eltz family, *624to which she was assigned, and Jimmy Kunkle; she acknowledged that she had not been in the Kunkle apartment since March 31st, and had had no direct dealings with Paul and Edward, beyond observing them in the Eltz home. N.T. 28. It is she who saw Mrs. Kunkle “drinking from a quart bottle of beer.” N.T. 27. Joan Hausman is a juvenile officer of the Allentown Police Department. She told of finding the Eltz children — who unlike Paul and Edward, were truants — in the Kunkle apartment, which she said was a “health hazard”, and of Paul being involved in a glue sniffing incident. N.T. 30-32. However, another officer had investigated the glue sniffing incident, N.T. 32, and after consulting her notes, Mrs. Hausman referred to “the glue sniffing complaint involving Franklin”, not Paul, N.T. 35. She then acknowledged on cross-examination that she had no present knowledge that Paul had been involved in glue-sniffing. N.T. 36.
The foregoing is a summary of the evidence presented by the Children’s Bureau. It is much to be regretted that the parents were not called to testify, either by the Bureau, their own counsel, or the hearing judge. Taking the record before us, however, as it is, I say that it cannot be held sufficient to support an order taking Paul and Edward from the family. Their house is dirty, and often, so are they; and they have some friends who are bad boys. Surely, however, this might be said of many poor people — and of many who are not poor. We cannot have the state’s long arm reaching into homes and snatching away the children on no greater proof than this. In addition, it is most important to consider in the balance the evidence that Paul and Edward are in sound health and doing well — very well — at school.
Finally, there should also be considered the evidence of the boys’ interview with the hearing judge. Paul, as the older boy, did most of the talking. After reading the transcript, I came away admiring both boys. Granted that the care given them by their parents has left much to be desired; they’ve risen above their difficulties in a remarkable way. Especially do I take off my hat to Paul, who “[i]f *625it’s a good week”, makes “close to $50” shining shoes, and then gives half of it to his mother. N.T. 56-57.
I should reverse and remand for proceedings consistent with this opinion.
. Children’s Defense Fund, Children Without Homes: An Examination of Public Responsibility to Children in Out-of-Home Care (1978).
. Id. at 5.
. The states included in the Defense Fund study were Arizona, California, Massachusetts, New Jersey, Ohio, South Carolina, and South Dakota.
. Pennsylvania State Task Force on Foster Care Services, Summary Report (1978).